My reply to "Right of Reply – the kosher labelling submission"

http://galusaustralis.com/2010/05/3073/right-of-reply-the-kosher-labelling-submission/

This is ridiculous.

How often in Australia do we find products that claim to be kosher? Most products don't have kashrut symbols on them, and are just listed in a book. Are we really worried that a marketer might say something is kosher? If that happened, the community would be very quickly informed of the lies without the need for government intervention.

Are you really scared that Food Standards Australia will mandate what is kosher in the future if you don't now? They are not concerned by such claims. Just look at how many times they pushed back requests for standards of vegetarian and other religious labeling.

see here: http://www.foodstandards.gov.au/_srcfiles/A545%20Vegetarian%20Labelling%20Info%20Paper%20FINAL.pdf

You mention the importance of "our community is unable to achieve a consensus on the details of a regulatory system". What makes you think that it is important that we reach a consensus. 2 Jews, 3 opinions. People do or don't follow the Eruv here in Melbourne. Around the world each person has different Kashrut organizations they do or do not trust. I do not think I should have the strictest strictures of "Kosher Australia" foisted upon me and I don't think the community should be forced to follow these rabbis which they themselves don't necessarily trust.

I would think that that ORA would forced glatt and other "mehadrin" ideas that would drive up the price of kosher food making it less available. There is more than one way of keeping kosher, and ORA admits this. There are Halakhic disagreements between different supervising businesses in Australia. However they represent a very narrow band of the spectrum of what is acceptable, and they should not be allowed to legally dictate to Australia's Jewish community what is acceptable to them.

I am the top blog for search of IAJV ??

Top blog for search of IAJV
Originally uploaded by seraphya.

I am apparently the top blog people find when they search for the "IAJV" (Independent Australian Jewish Voices). It beats me how this happened. There are no links that are pointing people to this blog about the IAJV.

Considering that this is the case I should just make it very clear what the IAJV is. It is a trick being used by Self-hating Jews and anti-Zionists to divide the Jews of Australia and to make people think that the Jewish community of Australia is not run democratically. Its mission statement is misleading and is easy to agree with as I showed in earlier posts. It has worked into tricking very well intentioned people into supporting it. It does not stand for peace between Israel and a future Palestinian state as it claims, but for the destruction of Israel. If you want a real left-wing Zionist organization in Australia try Hashomer Hatzair, which accidentally signed it before realizing it was duped, or try 'Jewish Voices for a Just Peace'.

One post I recommend exposing the IAJV is THE BLANK PAGES OF THE AGE

Even the Left wing isn't fooled by IAJV - and a possible solution

Dissent debate: The rebuttal
Backlash against dissident petition

Hashomer Hatzair was issued with an urgent “please explain” from the Zionist Federation of Australia (ZFA), after the youth movement’s controversial decision to sign the IAJV petition.

Claiming a “grave misunderstanding”, the youth group later moved to distance itself from IAJV founder Antony Loewenstein and said it had “signed in agreement with only the sentiments expressed in the letter”.

“In no way is our statement intended to express support for Antony Loewenstein’s personal opinions nor any of the other signatories.”

ZFA president Philip Chester said while he disagreed with the IAJV campaign, Hashomer Hatzair was entitled to its view and wouldn’t be ostracised for signing the petition.

The youth group had “misunderstood” the political agenda behind the dissenting campaign, he said.

Now Hashomer Hatzair (Hashi) was formed in Melbourne for those who were too left-wing for Habonim Dror, and therefore are just about the most left you will get in the scale of Australian Zionists. Now I am not suprised they signed the petition. It was written in a away that anyone, even a right-wing person could sign. What was the trick? it was to make people think something was wrong with the way Jewish and Zionist groups conduct themselves. While there maybe be valid issues that need to be brought up, as I pointed out earlier, this is a scam. The IAJV is having people sign onto a petition whose meaning is not what it seems to be.

Just in case you really believed that the Zionist groups in Australia don't behave well, we have perfect proof that they do. The ZFA would let people publicly condemn it and remain members without penalty.


Maybe we should all take a page out of Hashi's book and sign the petition. Imagine if everyone on the Jewish Board of Deputies and the ZFA and every organization were to sign the statement of principles, which as pointed at earlier, they already agree with. What better way of showing the IAJV and the world that the IAJV is redundant or has an ulterior motive?

Michael Danby - Federal MP against IAJV

After agreeing with the bland petition(which I posted about earlier to show how bland it really was) a group came out with this statement

But we object to and wish publicly to dissociate ourselves from disingenuous and misleading aspects of the IAJV petition.

The statement pretends that Israel's mainstream has not yet acknowledged Palestinian aspirations for a homeland.

We object to its saying nothing about either the rejection of Israel's legitimacy by Arab parties to the conflict or the role of Islamist terror.

In our opinion, an Arab-Israel peace will not be achieved by attempting to impose pariah status on Israel. Some of the key organisers of the IAJV petition have a long record of one-sided, Israel bashing.

The anti-Israel bias evident in the omissions of the IAJV petition forms part of that record and it is not a constructive step towards the peaceful solution of the conflict. That will come only when moderates prevail and extremists are condemned on both sides.

Only a tiny minority of Australian Jews reject the fundamental role that Israel plays in Australian Jewish life and identity and the need to ensure the security of Israel and we believe that this minority who condemn Israel have a right to express their views.

Nevertheless, the views of the large majority of Jews who support Israel's legitimacy and security are of greater significance in any debate.

Nor should a vocal minority be given special dispensation from community debate, scrutiny, and rational criticism. Australian Jews have a good understanding of what Israelis face every day. There are security guards at the gates of our children's schools and our Synagogues are terrorist targets. Peace in the Middle East will only come after terrorism is renounced and the extremists accept the right of Israel to exist free from attack in safe and secure borders.

Michael Danby
Federal MP

Eric Roozendaal
NSW government minister

Marsha Thomson
Victorian government minister

Martin Pakula
Parliamentary Secretary to the Victorian Minister for Transport

Michael Borowick
Assistant Secretary, Australian Worker's Union

Associate Professor Douglas Kirsner
Dr Phillip Mendes
Dr Paul Gardner
Dr Henry Pinskier
Justice Howard Nathan
Mark Dreyfus QC
George Newhouse
Rabbi John Levi
Leora Harrison
Roland Lindell
Jennifer Huppert
Bobby Guttman
Peter Koadlow
Jonathan Slonim
Vladimir Tsivlin
Ron Finkel
Michele Bernshaw
Reeva Lederman
Marcia Pinskier
Clem Issavitch
Amanda Mendes Da Costa



- The AJN



So far, I have just talked about the theory of an "independent voices". This tells you more about the Facts

A close look at the IAJV Declaration

The Blue italics will be my comments

The Declaration

Statement of Principles: A Call for an Alternative View

We are Jews with diverse opinions on the Middle East who share a deep concern about the current crisis in the region.

How many affiliated Jews aren't deeply concerned about what is happening in Israel and the middle east?

We are committed to ensuring a just peace that recognizes the legitimate national aspirations of both Israelis and Palestinians with a solution that protects the human rights of all.

Most people shouldn't have a problem with this. However not everyone will agree that the Palestinian national aspirations are legitimate. Certainly Hamas's vision of a Palestine that destroys and conquers Israel is not legitimate, so it wouldn't be included. Now skeptics will point out that most national aspirations of the Palestinians, including Fatah's are illegitimate, and would be right. I think that being that this organization is set up against the mainstream it will have a very broad definition of what is legitimate, but this line doesn't necessarily imply that. Very few Zionists cling to a one Jewish state solution, so I don't think people can complain about this line

We condemn violence by all parties, whether state sanctioned or not. We believe that Israel’s right to exist must be recognized and that Palestinians’ right to a homeland must also be acknowledged.

Treading on dangerous ground of moral equivalence. Israel's right to exist is not exactly Zionism, but it certainly isn't Anti-Zionism. I don't know exactly why the Palestinians have a "right" to a homeland. Maybe it is necessary to give them one given the situation, but a "right" to a Palestinian homeland that isn't Jordan is already becoming left wing. But thats OK, no one claimed that they weren't left wing Zionists.

As Australians we are privileged to live in a democratic state that embodies the principles of tolerance and free speech. We feel there is an urgent need to hear alternative voices that should not be silenced by being labelled disloyal or “self-hating.”

Often those being labeled disloyal or "self-hating" are, but I know plenty of people who are mislabeled, as I argued in my last post, they have a point.

Uncritical allegiance to Israeli government policy does not necessarily serve Israel’s best interests. Our concern for justice and peace in the Middle East is a legitimate opinion and should be met by reasoned argument rather than vilification and intimidation. In particular, we are concerned that the Jewish establishment does not represent the full range of Jewish opinion. Contrary to widespread concerns, anti-Semitism is not fuelled by Jews who publicly disagree with actions of the Jewish State.

Well the Orange anti-disengagement people will agree with that first sentence. Its hard to be against Justice and Peace, I know many a right-winger who are for that just us much as anyone else. I think they are being a bit alarmist in saying that the Jewish establishment does not represent the full range of Jewish opinion. Sure there are politics, in the Jewish establishment, but the ones who are attacking these progressive voices are much extreme and far form the centre than these progressives. Rather than remove themselves from the establishment, maybe they should have protected their rightful place inside the establishment. However, removing themselves from the establishment instead of firing back at those who attack them can be commended. At the end of the day, they are doing a disservice to themselves by removing themselves from the debate; they are also doing a bigger disservice to the establishment by removing themselves from it.

On the last point they are just plain wrong. Neturei Karta and Extremely Left-Wing Jews are some of the biggest fuelers of Antisemitism. Many Left-Wing groups which "publicly disagree with actions of the Jewish State" and don't do a good enough job at separating themselves form anti-zionists and antisemites bring about both antisemitism and mar the Left-Wing.

Jews understand what it is to suffer racism and victimization and therefore we are not only concerned about anti-Semitism but also the demonisation of all other minorities.

Sorry, but that therefore doesn't work. While I am concerned about all discrimination, I don't think one neccasarily has to lead to the other. While I use a variant of this approach to support Jewish efforts for Darfur, I think this statement could be clearer. Nothing wrong with it though.

We call upon fellow Jews to join us in supporting free debate to further the prospects of peace, security and human rights in the Middle East.

Free debate sounds good. As long as we are not talking about Holocaust Denial, which we aren't.

So I got through all of it, and found nothing wrong. Well, just that anti-semitism should be spelled antisemitism, because there is no such thing as "semitism"

Racist or Misinterpreted?

There is a whole scandal going on right now with a visiting professor in Australia who made talked about Islamic immigration to Australia.

“You have to infiltrate all those circles where the Muslim radicals operate, to arrest them, and to limit immigration into western countries where these Muslims, who are bent on destroying western civilisation ... to limit immigration, even students who apply to come from Islamic countries to the West,” he said.

“It serves no purpose when you have this home-grown terrorist, who has been preparing for years to blow up undergrounds in London, and all you do is lead a war of words. The war of words doesn’t help. There is a whole gamut of actions that are possible in order to check this threat of Islam.”

I might want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but due to another "Australian" using the misunderstood defense, I am disinclined to do so. Sheik Hilaly himself:

Children and mothers are crying. Sons of Islam, there is a war of infidels taking place everywhere. The true man is the boy who opposes Israeli tanks with strength and faith. The boy who, despite his mother’s objections, goes out to war to become a martyr like his elder brother...
...Don’t be surprised if one day you hear the Muezzin calling for prayer and saying “Allah Akbar (Allah is Great)” from the top of the white house. September 11 is God’s work against oppressors.
-ABC

If you haven't heard about him I suggest you read these.

On the other hand, we really do have some misinterpreted Israeli academics lately. A Bar Ilan Professor writing about blood libels


Another important factor in deciding how comments should be considered is if there are other people saying the same thing who are clearly not racist.
And there are.

After a suicide truck bomb killed more than 132 people and wounded hundreds in a Baghdad market a few weeks ago, the head of the Shiite-controlled Interior Ministry's explosives department, Maj. Gen. Jihad al-Jabiri, told state-run Iraqi television: "I call on the government to deport (foreign) Arabs immediately."
...
A day after the Interior Ministry general asked for Arabs' deportation, some Shiite members of parliament echoed the call. That led to a dispute after the parliament speaker, a Sunni Arab, retorted that both Arabs "and others" should be deported — a reference to Iranians. Many Sunnis here fear Iranians are infiltrating Iraq.
- Yahoo News

I guess the context is very different in this case. After all we have no problems with Jews making Jewish jokes, or blacks making black jokes etc. Then again Sunnis and Shiites aren't one big happy family. Maybe they deserve equal condemnation as our visiting professor, or maybe we can forgive them because of the pressures of a war.

So there you have it...make up your own mind, but I hope I gave you some directions to think in